Interview with Amel Grami
Tunisia has long been one of the most progressive countries in the Arab world with regard to women's rights. But even here neoconservative and Islamist ideas have increasingly been finding a receptive audience among young women. Beat Stauffer spoke with Tunisian religious scholar Amel Grami
Amel Grami: "A whole generation of young people have no dreams, no ideals, no more hope. They simply sense that we have failed"
Is Tunisia still a role model for the Arab world in respect to women's rights?
Amel Grami: For several years now, unfortunately, Tunisia has no longer been a role model for the Arab-Islam world in this respect. There has been a clear regression. Since I am in direct contact with female students, I can observe how much of what we long fought to attain is being lost today.
Nowadays many female students are ready for a "retour à la charia". They call for the application of Sharia laws, even though they are unfavourable for women. They think, for instance, that the best way to solve the unemployment problem is for women to return to their stoves, and many wear the veil. They defend the traditional Islamic inheritance law and are convinced that much of value has been lost because of women's emancipation. Even polygamy does not really disturb them; instead, they see it as legitimate.
We emancipated women have obviously not done enough to disseminate our ideals and values. If you go strolling on the streets of Tunis today, you will see grandmothers and mothers typically not veiled, while the third generation is wearing headscarves. The return to religious thinking, the return to Islamic values is readily apparent. There are female doctors and engineers who proselytise for Islam – something nobody in Tunisia would have considered possible until recently.
How do you explain this re-Islamisation?
Grami: I think that the Arab media have played a very important role in this. We once used to be proud of our Tunisian culture, of our openness. But much has changed since we have come under the influence of the Arab media. Furthermore, there is a profound identity crisis that has been reinforced by the wars in Iraq and Lebanon. At present there is tremendous frustration in the Arab world, and people feel like they have been pushed up against the wall. In this situation they are seeking protection and support in religion.
The return to rituals and the strict observance of religious rules in this respect seems important to me. I see it as a kind of fetishism. For years they have been trying to "seduce women into wearing the veil". Here Arab TV stations have also played a decisive role. Today there is a headscarf vogue in Tunisia, something we have never witnessed before.
Don't young female Tunisians see the advantages that they enjoy compared to the women in most other Arab countries because of the relatively progressive women's rights situation in Tunisia?
Grami: To answer your question I must explain something. Ultimately, this all has to do with the fiasco of religious education in Tunisia. Religion has long been by far the least popular class in Tunisian schools, and the teachers have not been taking the lessons seriously. A whole generation of young people have not learned anything substantial about religion.
Nowadays many female students are ready for a "retour à la charia", says Amel Grami
Despite the reform initiated by former Education Minister Mohamed Charfi, not much has changed in this matter. He advocated a modern interpretation of the Koran, but his project failed, because the teachers were not convinced. They all had a very conservative understanding of religion and knew nothing about religious sociology, comparative religion, and the like.
Thus a whole generation has only a limited knowledge of religion, and young people have not learned much from their families either. If at all, they come into contact with religion in private circles, and here the Islamists play a central role.
Many religious programmes broadcasting over satellite TV convey a conservative or even a fundamentalist viewpoint. Aren't there any other TV stations that try to oppose this conservative content with a modern, secular viewpoint?
Grami: This is an important point. We find ourselves in this crisis because on the one hand many intellectuals have become indifferent to the issue and no longer want to get involved. They understand that their discourse, their worldview has little influence compared to the enormous influence of the TV preachers, for instance.
On the other hand, it seems to me that the Islamists are being actively encouraged to occupy this field. It has gone so far today that people who appear on TV discussion programmes are often made to look ridiculous if they hold liberal, moderate, secular views. For this reason many forward-looking intellectuals no longer want to participate in such programmes.
Why don't the governments in the Maghreb make an effort to oppose this religious conservatism?
"Until a few years ago young people who felt scorned by their own societies could emigrate. Today the borders are tighter than ever, and those who still make it to Europe have a difficult time there as Arabs and Muslims"
Grami: I have the impression that conservative Islamic circles are being encouraged and supported by the state. If you go to a book fair, you will see a vast quantity of religious literature. In contrast, critical books are often censored.
What, in your view, is the main reason for the increasing appeal of the neoconservative or even fundamentalist worldview in the Arab world? Is it primarily the feeling of being constantly humiliated by the West?
Grami: From the West, yes, but also from their own regimes. Such a development is not surprising when there is no freedom of speech, when it is impossible to openly discuss the key problems of a society, and when no progress is made on many issues. A whole generation of young people have no dreams, no ideals, no more hope. They simply sense that we have failed.
I have many students who know very well that a master's degree in Arabic literature is not worth much today. These young people feel humiliated in their own countries. Until a few years ago young people who felt scorned by their own societies could emigrate. Today the borders are tighter than ever, and those who still make it to Europe have a difficult time there as Arabs and Muslims. Today these young people know that there is no more hope for them. This is why they are seeking refuge in religion.
Let's talk about the role of women in religious institutions. Is this still a male domain in Tunisia?
Grami: For various reasons, feminists in the 1980s and 1990s did not even try to penetrate this sphere. Many female and male scholars in my generation studied Arabic language and literature as well as modern humanities. As a result, a number of interesting, new works on religious topics have been published. However, "Islamic feminism" – a movement that takes up feminist issues but supports them with Islamic arguments – has not been able to gain a foothold in Tunisia.
There was a very clear division among the women: Either you were feminist or religious. We emancipated women were not aware that we needed a project to oppose the Islamists and thus to defend modern, secular values. But this has now changed.
Do you consider the phenomenon of "Islamic feminism", which shows signs of turning into a movement, significant?
Grami: Yes, very much so. This movement will help young women develop a new, different idea of religion. As I mentioned earlier, moderate, progressive interpretations have very little influence compared to the orthodox and Islamist interpretations. The young generation does not even get the chance to find out that religious knowledge does not rest solely in the hands of men! There is no compilation of the works by female religious scholars, and many of these female authors have been silenced.
But don't many "Islamic feminists" also hold conservative or Islamist views?
Grami: It varies from country to country. Female Islamists in Egypt have religious authority, while feminists are able to open new avenues in research. If both "camps" could join forces on a project, a synergistic force would be born.
Many obstacles could be overcome this way. This is also true of Moroccan feminists. They understand that they must at least selectively work with female Islamists. This is not possible in Tunisia, because here Islamist movements are banned and thus there are no self-confessed Islamists. They have to work in the underground and are afraid to step forward in public.
Beat Stauffer
© Qantara.de 2009
Translated from the German by Nancy Joyce
Printversion
Onward to a Modern Islam?
Tunisia has long been one of the most progressive countries in the Arab world with regard to women's rights. But even here neoconservative and Islamist ideas have increasingly been finding a receptive audience among young women. Beat Stauffer spoke with Tunisian religious scholar Amel Grami
; "Amel Grami (photo: private copyright)")
Amel Grami: "A whole generation of young people have no dreams, no ideals, no more hope. They simply sense that we have failed"
Is Tunisia still a role model for the Arab world in respect to women's rights?Amel Grami: For several years now, unfortunately, Tunisia has no longer been a role model for the Arab-Islam world in this respect. There has been a clear regression. Since I am in direct contact with female students, I can observe how much of what we long fought to attain is being lost today.
Nowadays many female students are ready for a "retour à la charia". They call for the application of Sharia laws, even though they are unfavourable for women. They think, for instance, that the best way to solve the unemployment problem is for women to return to their stoves, and many wear the veil. They defend the traditional Islamic inheritance law and are convinced that much of value has been lost because of women's emancipation. Even polygamy does not really disturb them; instead, they see it as legitimate.
We emancipated women have obviously not done enough to disseminate our ideals and values. If you go strolling on the streets of Tunis today, you will see grandmothers and mothers typically not veiled, while the third generation is wearing headscarves. The return to religious thinking, the return to Islamic values is readily apparent. There are female doctors and engineers who proselytise for Islam – something nobody in Tunisia would have considered possible until recently.
How do you explain this re-Islamisation?
Grami: I think that the Arab media have played a very important role in this. We once used to be proud of our Tunisian culture, of our openness. But much has changed since we have come under the influence of the Arab media. Furthermore, there is a profound identity crisis that has been reinforced by the wars in Iraq and Lebanon. At present there is tremendous frustration in the Arab world, and people feel like they have been pushed up against the wall. In this situation they are seeking protection and support in religion.
The return to rituals and the strict observance of religious rules in this respect seems important to me. I see it as a kind of fetishism. For years they have been trying to "seduce women into wearing the veil". Here Arab TV stations have also played a decisive role. Today there is a headscarf vogue in Tunisia, something we have never witnessed before.
Don't young female Tunisians see the advantages that they enjoy compared to the women in most other Arab countries because of the relatively progressive women's rights situation in Tunisia?
Grami: To answer your question I must explain something. Ultimately, this all has to do with the fiasco of religious education in Tunisia. Religion has long been by far the least popular class in Tunisian schools, and the teachers have not been taking the lessons seriously. A whole generation of young people have not learned anything substantial about religion.
; "Islamist women in Jordan (photo: AP)")
Nowadays many female students are ready for a "retour à la charia", says Amel Grami
Despite the reform initiated by former Education Minister Mohamed Charfi, not much has changed in this matter. He advocated a modern interpretation of the Koran, but his project failed, because the teachers were not convinced. They all had a very conservative understanding of religion and knew nothing about religious sociology, comparative religion, and the like. Thus a whole generation has only a limited knowledge of religion, and young people have not learned much from their families either. If at all, they come into contact with religion in private circles, and here the Islamists play a central role.
Many religious programmes broadcasting over satellite TV convey a conservative or even a fundamentalist viewpoint. Aren't there any other TV stations that try to oppose this conservative content with a modern, secular viewpoint?
Grami: This is an important point. We find ourselves in this crisis because on the one hand many intellectuals have become indifferent to the issue and no longer want to get involved. They understand that their discourse, their worldview has little influence compared to the enormous influence of the TV preachers, for instance.
On the other hand, it seems to me that the Islamists are being actively encouraged to occupy this field. It has gone so far today that people who appear on TV discussion programmes are often made to look ridiculous if they hold liberal, moderate, secular views. For this reason many forward-looking intellectuals no longer want to participate in such programmes.
Why don't the governments in the Maghreb make an effort to oppose this religious conservatism?
; "Muslim women in Germany (photo: AP)")
"Until a few years ago young people who felt scorned by their own societies could emigrate. Today the borders are tighter than ever, and those who still make it to Europe have a difficult time there as Arabs and Muslims"
Grami: I have the impression that conservative Islamic circles are being encouraged and supported by the state. If you go to a book fair, you will see a vast quantity of religious literature. In contrast, critical books are often censored.What, in your view, is the main reason for the increasing appeal of the neoconservative or even fundamentalist worldview in the Arab world? Is it primarily the feeling of being constantly humiliated by the West?
Grami: From the West, yes, but also from their own regimes. Such a development is not surprising when there is no freedom of speech, when it is impossible to openly discuss the key problems of a society, and when no progress is made on many issues. A whole generation of young people have no dreams, no ideals, no more hope. They simply sense that we have failed.
I have many students who know very well that a master's degree in Arabic literature is not worth much today. These young people feel humiliated in their own countries. Until a few years ago young people who felt scorned by their own societies could emigrate. Today the borders are tighter than ever, and those who still make it to Europe have a difficult time there as Arabs and Muslims. Today these young people know that there is no more hope for them. This is why they are seeking refuge in religion.
Let's talk about the role of women in religious institutions. Is this still a male domain in Tunisia?
Grami: For various reasons, feminists in the 1980s and 1990s did not even try to penetrate this sphere. Many female and male scholars in my generation studied Arabic language and literature as well as modern humanities. As a result, a number of interesting, new works on religious topics have been published. However, "Islamic feminism" – a movement that takes up feminist issues but supports them with Islamic arguments – has not been able to gain a foothold in Tunisia.
There was a very clear division among the women: Either you were feminist or religious. We emancipated women were not aware that we needed a project to oppose the Islamists and thus to defend modern, secular values. But this has now changed.
Do you consider the phenomenon of "Islamic feminism", which shows signs of turning into a movement, significant?
Grami: Yes, very much so. This movement will help young women develop a new, different idea of religion. As I mentioned earlier, moderate, progressive interpretations have very little influence compared to the orthodox and Islamist interpretations. The young generation does not even get the chance to find out that religious knowledge does not rest solely in the hands of men! There is no compilation of the works by female religious scholars, and many of these female authors have been silenced.
But don't many "Islamic feminists" also hold conservative or Islamist views?
Grami: It varies from country to country. Female Islamists in Egypt have religious authority, while feminists are able to open new avenues in research. If both "camps" could join forces on a project, a synergistic force would be born.
Many obstacles could be overcome this way. This is also true of Moroccan feminists. They understand that they must at least selectively work with female Islamists. This is not possible in Tunisia, because here Islamist movements are banned and thus there are no self-confessed Islamists. They have to work in the underground and are afraid to step forward in public.
Beat Stauffer
© Qantara.de 2009
Translated from the German by Nancy Joyce
Qantara.de
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Interview with Asma Barlas
"It Is the Right for Every Muslim to Interpret the Quran for Themselves"
One of the scholars who try to offer a more emancipatory interpretation of the Quran is Asma Barlas. She closely examines the male-oriented interpretations of the Quran and offers an antipatriarchal alternative
Nahed Selim
The Prophet and the Women
What is the Koran's real attitude to women? Should every sura be taken at face value? Is it time for a change of attitude? Nahed Selim, a liberal Dutch Muslim, offers a female perspective on Islam's holy scriptures. Abdul-Ahmad Rashid reports
Dossier
Feminist Approaches to Islam
Muslim women struggling for emancipation often turn to tradition for inspiration. They analyse the Koran and the history of Islam and challenge interpretations which have been accepted for centuries. Read this and more in our dossier
Printversion
Comments
1. ISLAM
Hanan Badr, Very well said!! A very authentic, realistic and impressive writing that's whay no one had anything to differ, perhaps!! The most important is: That We have to behave properly to let the world know that " Islam Indeed Is A Religion of Peace and Tolerance and respect for the man kind (believers or non believers). Let us work hard to let the world understand that extremism, fanaticism, suicidal attacks are not the basics of Islam, which teaches us to reject all sorts of violence and bloodshed.
Khalid Ahmed Chaudry | 10.08.2009 - 18:34
2. The intro is not well written
The introductory few lines of the interview are very disturbing and biased, since the author describes the case as if "Islamic ideas" clash with progressive and democratic ideas. This is a wide-spread misconception of an average Western "Couch potato", something I don't wish to read in the Qantara website. Who said that Islamic values contradict with modernity? Why use the word 'but'? It is the cultural practices with certain historic constellations in Muslim countries that resulted in today's miserable conditions. It is not Islam in itself, it is what people who consider themselves Muslims made out of it, regarding women's rights and other freedoms. Thus the introduction alone is very misleading and follows the 'Either/Or' paradigm. There is something called 'Feminist Islam' as well that calls for a reinterpretation to ensure women rights. The choice of the picture is totally irrelevant to the article since it clearly shows female demonstrators against insulting the Prophet (propably due to the Danish 'culturally insensitive' cartoons). So where is the link to Modernizing Islam? Isn't it modern to peacefully protest against a perceived assault on one's religious prophets and symbols?
Hanan Badr | 07.08.2009 - 17:52
3. Modern Islam ? What's This??
I am utterly confused when ever I read or listen people using the term 'Modern Islam'. For those who believe that Torah, Bible and Quran are the holy books revealed on prophets through the angle of God. Then who gave us authority to 'modernize the Abrahamic Religions', and why should we? Actually its our culture which influence our day to day life style and habits. In the different Muslim Countries there are quite different cultures and practices,lets take the largest Muslim country Indonesia or Bangladesh,Pakistan/India or the Middle-Eastern countries we have quite different situations. Concerning the Gender Issue or other fields of the human rights we experience confronting situations. I am extremely upset when I read Madam Amel Grami's words " the younger generation have no dreams, no ideals and no more hopes"! This hopelessness is not due to the originality of our religions but its due to the prevailing social/political systems in the Islamic World. Where ruling elites are enjoying maximum power's and the people are left either with worst poverty, illiteracy and their rights (if these are some how acknowledged by the ruling classes) are being violated. It's not only women suffering over there but almost everybody, the children, kids, youth, elderlies. This hopelessness is now every where in the Islamic World (see the example of Pakistan under ever growing number of Taliban's, suicide bombers) and this 'hopelessness is at the boiling point'. We do not need to discuss how to modernize Christianity, Judaism or Islam for the sake of human freedom, but to struggle against Status Quo. Until unless the systems are not changed, and 'The Family Rules' are not broken, I am afraid to say " Every body will continue to suffer..........! We need to modernize the social, political and economical systems!! And this can never be achieved if we think that 'Modernization of Islam is the solution' No Sir...we have to leave this so called academic debate and talk about the 'Ground Realities'. It's not Torah, Bible or Quran demanding the present societies to violate the human rights, keep people hungry, illiterate, keep the girls at home, do not let them to participate equally among men. We have to blame ourselves and those developed nations who are not doing enough for A World Free of Poverty and Injustices, Level Playing Fields For The South and above all encouraging the people of the world to strengthen the democracies which is the only opportunity for the 'Equal Rights For Every human being!!!
Khalid Ahmed Chaudry | 07.08.2009 - 17:21
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